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Do some research on the relevance of the White Snake theme in contemporary Chinese popular culture. Write a reflective paragraph explaining why old tales such as the White Snake are still so prevalent today using evidence from both readings and any external materials. Due Wednesday Jan. 29 by 10 pm; short comments to two other responses due the same day by 11:59 pm. I look forward to reading your responses!
I enjoyed reading about the myriad possible interpretations of "traditional" chinese legends. For example on page 38 of the Idema reading regarding the legend of Meng Jiangnu it said:
ReplyDelete"This may well be the only rational explanation of Meng Jiangnu's behavior for a modern audience, but I am convinced that for a more traditional audience any suggestion that she acted out of passion rather than a strong moral feeling of shame would greatly detract from the nobility of her action."
What is interesting to me is how drastically opinions can vary from generation to generation. Regarding art in general, there can occasionally be some interpretations that would never even cross my mind, but would be blindingly obvious to someone from a different generation. Then again, I suppose that with the reordering of society's values in general, it is inevitable that our responses to a given situation would also change in tandem. This is reflected in how with regards to the Meng Jiangnu story, the protagonist feels such intense shame at being seen naked that she immediately marries the guy that saw her. To the modern mind, this kind of reaction is completely alien, but perhaps to a more traditional generation this kind of reaction would be more congruent with their existing worldview and particular values at the time.
I quite enjoyed reading the story of the white snake. Seeing as I was rather unfamiliar with the story at first, I had to read it on wikipedia before being able to comprehend the reading we had about white snake. That being said, I can easily see why this story has been so influential throughout the ages. I felt like this story is extremely pregnant with hidden meaning, and obviously functions well as a commentary on gender dynamics. On page 5 I found this paragraph particularly informative:
"Intrinsic to both images were implications of the female as destroyer, the feminine as the enemy of reason and order, the yin of chaos. The Biblical myth of Eve’s affiliation withthe snake in the Garden of Eden suggests a Western archetype of the snake-woman charged with transgressive sexuality and demonic energies. Thus there appears to be an archetypal association of woman with demon-snake in both Judeo-Christian and Chinese traditions. However much he professed feminist values, Tian Han was undeniably drawn to and seduced by this markedly regressive archetype."
Regarding this story, I feel like it functions as a rorshach test of sorts where, depending on your particular point of view, you will interpret the basic story as either positively representing female energy, or negatively representing it. That being said, I do find it interesting how the archetype of the snake woman seems to be present in both western and eastern thought. While I don't necessarily endorse that point of view, I do suspect that there must be some sort of real life corollary that underpins the existence of this trope, thus explaining its enduring appeal. In my opinion, I think that perhaps female energy (represented by the snake woman) is merely misunderstood, thus it is upon this fundamental misunderstanding that suspicion grows. Thus explaining why the snake woman archetype seems to have independently (?) taken root in both the eastern and western weltanschauung. Although that being said, I don't think that the snake woman archetype is necessarily regressive; afterall, without the particular character traits embodied by the "snake woman" archetype then it follows that there would be no basis for the admittedly more positive, powerful (and sometimes heroic) archetype of the femme fatale. In fact I even go as far as saying that perhaps the two archetypes are actually opposing sides of the same coin.
In fact, I think that Meng Jiangnu's story is well reflected the China feudal culture.
DeleteIt is crazy how different values and opinions can change between generations. I believe that it's not so much about how little time it takes for something to drastically change, but rather it must be the volume of symbolic content and iconography that rapidly or slowly changes the minds of people. For instance, the new retelling's of the White Snake from 1950 on, are accompanied with simplified Chinese, higher literacy, internet, and widely distributed motion picture.
DeleteI agree that with each person and culture comes a different interpretation of the information presented. For me, it seemed like a very sexist view of women. The woman as a snake who seduces the man and the moral monk who believes this relationship should not be, all screams Adam and Eve to me and the first temptation. Maybe because of my upbringing and research into women's studies, I am slightly biased while reading but it did seem that the white snake was seen in a negative light rather than a positive empowering one. I hate to sound so pessimistic but as it is, it is just how it jumps out to me.
DeleteI think the most interesting part about your response was the reference to the Judeo-Christian viewpoint regarding women and stories/myths that have been told throughout time. That's a whole path that I hadn't even started to think about...
DeleteI like your comparison to the Rorschach test, and I really agree. On the one hand, the power wielded by white snake over others and over 'mortals' is immense, on the other, she's evil at her core. You can even cast is as a question of how far away from one's own nature can we go? If she wants to be 'good', compliant with social trends and norms, can she if she's considered intrinsically 'evil'?
DeleteI like what you said about different interpretations from generation to generation. It's not only about values, it can also be about historical subtext. If the reader doesn't know what was going on in that time and place, there may be certain metaphors that are just not understood.
DeleteWhat really struck me in the reading is how easily a story can be read and interpreted in so many ways depending on the reader and the zeitgeist of the time period in which it is interpreted. On page 40 of the Idema reading, he discusses the different interpretations of the tale of Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai. The modern interpretation being that it is a story about a girl who wants to pursue advanced education outside the home and represents a desire for equal rights and free love. However, if viewed in a traditional light this becomes a cautionary tale for women about leaving the domestic sphere. “In other cases it may not have been the story itself that changed, but rather the interpretation” (pg. 40).
ReplyDeleteThe stories can also be changed to better fit the ideals of the time. On page 39 of the Idema reading there is a quote about how Tian Han adapted the legend of the white snake to fit what he wished to portray through his retelling:
"As a modern intellectual, Tian Han had of course to do away with this filial son. For him, the white snake was not the embodiment of lust or passion, but the embodiment of love."
It reminded me of a concept from the first reading we did over the definition of culture: that texts themselves have no meaning and it is only when they are read and interpreted do they obtain meaning. This study of Chinese folktales and their various adaptations and interpretations really brings this concept to life. There may have been some original purpose by the author, but as times change this meaning is lost and all that is left is the story itself to be interpreted by future readers.
Why the legend of the White Snake is still so prevalent in contemporary Chinese popular culture today is because it can be interpreted to address the issues and ideals that were arising as China was modernizing. It can be interpreted to represent free love, the modern female role, and sexuality. The character of Fa Hai can also be interpreted as a villain and represents the old morals of China and over coming these outdated ideals. I think the appeal of folk tales in modern popular culture is that these stories not only serve as an entertaining way to represent the ideals of an age, but also as a link to a culture’s past that can unite all generations of a culture by a shared oral tradition.
I also like the story: Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai, and I think Zhu Yingtai is a brave woman, she dares to challenge the prevailing culture.
DeleteI have to agree with the way you understood the differences of post-modern, and modern China’s interpretation of these folktales. They are interpreted in two different ways to portray how over time the tradition of China stays the same, whereas what is “popular” within China's culture constantly changes.
DeleteWhat I discovered from the reading was how the contemporary medium has changed and adapted through time in order to convey the various messages in The Legend of the White Snake such as sexual relations, the modern female role and the hidden ideal of how love can be harmful to humans through evolved interpretations based on the thinking and events during certain times. While interpretations change in order to fit the imaginative thinking through time, I feel it is also important to understand the medium through which the message is executed can change what information the audience can perceive. On page 31 of Old Tales from New Times the author describes how even the most traditional of literary stories have been transformed into dramas and fictions. While the stories of the pieces may change, there are still certain areas of the contemporary medium that can be traced back to older literary pieces where the intended message can be found. Furthermore, the author explains how the addition of language and addition to the story such as names, items and symbols (page 32) can create a division between “traditional readers” with how they believe the message is received; the “intellectual readers” and how the message should be received by others. Because the common population’s interpretation of folklore is always changing, I feel that it is necessary for the author, director, and/or writer to change the contemporary medium so the message of folklores, such as The Legend of the White Snake is not lost but rather is integrated into a medium to appeal to the imagination of the audience during certain time periods.
ReplyDeleteThe White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China explains the metamorphism of the white snake and how the character had to evolve through events in order to present the ideal image of the modern Chinese woman. Metamorphism itself is perhaps the most important word in this piece because metamorphism is the formation of something new from pre-existing materials. This is consistent with past readings where we discussed how traditional Chinese culture can be traced back to its roots. The metamorphism of the white snake is not letting go of past events or literary materials, but rather the being is transforming and adding to what already exists to make a more complete and relevant ideal vision of the modern Chinese woman. This states that the white snake will continue to evolve and expand but will still contain the core messages stated in the previous paragraph. Looking on page 7 of The White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China, it illustrates how the white snake’s transformation during the Cold War Era is represented through the role of a famous Japanese actress, Yamaguchi Yoshiko represented not only the evolution of the modern Chinese woman but also acted as a social leader during a dramatic social change occurring in China where heterosexual love and women’s rights became more prevalent. The reason why folklore such as The Legend of the White Snake is so prevalent is because the character can change to emulate the evolution of the modern Chinese woman but the intrinsic social ideals and roles of the white snake will still be relevant to that time.
I agree, it's important to remember original ideals of folk tales and traditions, if for nothing else, at least to remember and study and learn from the minds of our old societies of which we are products.
DeleteChanges are made in order to accommodate to different generations but I completely agree in that original meaning and message of the tale needs to remain in tack otherwise, it could be lost. But I really enjoyed reading your analysis of the White Snake and how it focuses on "not letting go of past events or literary materials, but rather the being is transforming and adding to what already exists" which I believe is essentially what culture does, building on the past and making it better suited for the current generation.
DeleteIn "Old Tales for New Times" this article, I very like that the author introduced China stories: Meng Jiangnu, Buffalo Boy and Weaving Maiden, the White Snake, Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai, Dong Yong. In fact I think these are the classic story of Chinese. Among them, I am most interested in the story is: Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai. At that time, the status of women in Chinese is not high, so the women were not allowed to attend school. However, Zhu Yingtai dare to challenge the cultural background, and she through their own efforts to get free love, I think this person is very great. Through the Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai this story, we can know that Chinese cultural characteristics and now China cultural are differences. So I think Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai is a very good story.
ReplyDeleteAt page 32, it shows that “China had always had stories about gods and about the interactions of gods and humans but these had never been called shenhua (stories of gods)" I think this is a very important point, can be compared Chinese culture and the western culture is different.
Through this article "White Snake as New Woman" that I have a deeper understanding about the story. I had read different versions of the tale of the White Snake; however I never know whether this is a film about women and class story. "The metamorphoses of the White Snake tell a complicated story about gender and class.
At page 5, it shows “Tian Hans’s lifelong endeavor of creating the new woman against the background of the Hollywood vamp tradition further confirms the central importance of the cinematic mediation to the metamorphosis of the White Snake theme." Through this article I learned Tian Han hopes that Beijing opera performance of the legend of white snake female role. Tian put so much effort in the White Snake story, he want to show a good work to the people.
I also found it very interesting that China only recently starting labeling their stories about human/God interactions as shenhua. It shows a very unique facet of Chinese culture.
DeleteI had fun reading your response, you made some great points in your response.
DeleteFor white snake, personally i prefer to watch the newest version which is acted by(Tao Liu), but other TV serious versions of white snake they make a different of the original book,except 1992 version. like in Japan's version they said white snake is a pet.
DeleteI have to echo others with regards to the language associated with folktales, I think the paradigm used to approach them is largely based on the language use to engage and read them with, so that change in nomenclature was really important to changing how they are used, read, appreciated, etc.
DeleteIdema defines tradition as "the continuous internalization and teaching of cultural forms and values." He states that attempts to solidify and define culture are futile, so our recent observations of how the tale of the white snake has progressed is clear evidence. He emphasizes the role of traditional and folk culture as a tool of the elite, or at least the ruling party, of a nation. The White snake example shows a shift from caution to lust and unrequited love, to a down-with-the-old-society and patriarchal system (as advocated by writers such as Lu Xun).
ReplyDeleteWe have seen these tales resurface as popular culture and this can serve a nation well. Pop culture has the power to redefine and idealize a people’s past, by way of nostalgia and unity, and in such a way that strengthens and promotes contemporary ideals (pg xix). As observed in Luo's piece, the White Snake tale changes from upholding the “lust, caution” parable, as well as “defense of social norms and natural human relationships” to “to a modernist femme fatale, and finally to a female activist propagating socialism and feminism” (pg 6).
I agree with your point about the power of pop culture. The story of the White Snake is a perfect example of how pop culture effectively moulds stories and ideas to represent and amplify said culture.
DeleteWhat is most important from the two readings for the week are the way myths and folktales are created and the function they serve. The stories were considered to be important to national identity, so much so that when lacking, "...these materials were if needs be created." (Idema 29) What was important wasn't the history of a tale, but the perception of a national identity. This same function shows up in the cold-war usage of the legend of lady white snake "...supernatural materials such as the story of the White Snake were creatively manipulated to popularize modern ideas, such as thecelebration of heterosexual love, women’s rights, and the triumph of humanity." (Luo 6) In this case, the tale is less about the national relevance, but more the ideological stances it could represent, which is similar to national identity in a way.
ReplyDeleteMyths are something that pervades popular culture. Old tales from Shakespeare, from Homer and more are all referenced in the creation of new stories. We turn to the past to express new ideas for the future. In this way, folktales serve more originally to reflect than to shape. They reflect to ideals of the creator, and others come to see that reflection in the tale itself, and are thus influenced by it, spreading those ideas.
As for specifically White Snake, the myth touches on relationships both personal and societal, something that never loses relevance. Through the medium of the myth, new approaches to the same old problems can be propounded. How the approach to the theme of repression is dealt with shows how white snake has changed, and remained on the forefront of popular culture. From older versions where Fa Hai, the monk, is seen as a protector of cultural norms, to an old man trying to prevent the consummation of true love, we see the changing attitudes of writers and by extension viewers.
Sources: FengMengLong translation of BaiSheZhuan by Adam Woeltz
Madam White Snake, Shaw Brothers, 2004
The way you described the readings for this week gave me a completely different outlook from how I interpreted them. It's interesting to read your point of view of the ideological stance regarding the folktale.
DeleteI agree with your interpretation of the readings. People will always be dealing with the same problems and these folktales illustrate these fundamental problems. The only thing that really changes over time is the way people approach and deal with these problems concerning the human condition.
DeleteWhat is most important from the two readings for the week are the way myths and folktales are created and the function they serve. I think this is a great point of yours
DeleteYou know, while I was reading about the monk Fahai, I was curious as to which portrayal of him is actually the best. I mean, through the eye of modern sensibilities we would of course consider Fahai a villain because he is obstructing "true love", yet at the same time I believe that not all that glitters is gold, so perhaps the older rendition of the monk may have been a wiser one. I'm still not sure which interpretation is the best one...
DeleteIt depends on how White Snake is portrayed as well, if she is a demon, then no matter what she tries to do, she will cause unhappiness for humans. In this situation, Fa Hai is the deliverer of the hoodwinked, ignorant peasant.
DeleteIn a Taiwanese version of this story, that is indeed the case, and while White Snake does some good stuff, and is dedicated to her husband, she seems to lack a conscious, and lies, poisons others in order to drum up medical business, and other reprehensible actions.
This gets removed from several modern versions, making her into a much calmer and nicer character, consequently casting Fa Hai into a repressive, unneeded light.
The story of the White Snake is beautiful in its ability to adapt to the cultural needs of each generation. I find it so fascinating to read about how the story was originally interpreted in the past and slowly grew into modern interpretations today. This story’s ability to transcend the ages and grow with the people of China is exactly why this story is so popular to this day. On page 37 (Old Tales for New Times) Idema highlights one of the main changes in the story. “In the twentieth century this reading has become so naturalized that many of out students find it difficult even to entertain the thought that these stories might not be a celebration of love but rather cautionary tales warning against the dangers of inappropriate passion.” The fact that 20th century popular interpretation has morphed this story from a warning against passion to essentially a love story has only enriched the meaning of the White Snake even more.
ReplyDeleteThe metamorphosis of the White Snake had much to do with the modern girl discourse and real life new women throughout the republican, socialist, and post-socialist eras (Liang, pg. 1). I find it very interesting that, just as the story of the White Snake has grown over time, so has the position of women in society. The Sinophone world was brought about to accept the modern “working” woman and femme fatale by way of this story. The film actresses who portrayed the White Snake very much already embodied many of the White Snake’s traits such as passion and freedom of female sexuality. The society that shaped and was built upon the myth of the White Snake eventually came to resemble her.
I also found it very interesting that the metamorphosis of interpretation that the legend of the white snake went through mirrored the progression of the position of women in society, and that the white snake became a symbol for the new modern girl.
DeleteYes, this correlates with my view as well. The image of the snake woman can function as the basis of either a regressive view of women, or an empowering one. I think it would be folly to dismiss the archetype of the snake woman out of hand just because it may initially appear to have negative connotations attached to it.
DeleteI agree that its very interesting to see that the changing position of women in society from being purely objects of desire to empowered human beings led to a change in the themes of the story and that the reinvented myth itself then had reverberations on societal values.
DeleteThe most interesting finding I discovered from this reading is the fact that though Chinese culture may differ from western culture, in the end, the stories of love, sacrifice, betrayal, forbidden love and sexuality all seem to come to the forefront again and again. The symbolism is not lost in translation in that it portrays women as the ever corrupting succubus that must be avoided at all cost to moral standards. It is very frustrating as a woman from our century to see a tale so survived when it appears to be nothing more than sexist propaganda targeted at men who would be eternally plagued by women. The story is as old as time. In Christian mythology with Adam and Eve, in Greek mythology with sirens, all seducing men for their purposes; the theme is old. "The multivalent snake symbolism challenges Christian iconography with a heroic seductress while also gesturing towards the WhiteSnake legend so central to Tian Han’s work as a whole." (Luo 5) This correlation between the different cultures and histories is interesting in that so many stories throughout time have prevailed because of their appeal to men and women alike. This story does have appeal to women in that it is tragic for the lovers and that tragedy is what propels the romance. This story may appeal to men as a sort of cautionary tale. To be careful who you involve with or she might be a snake after all. These type of stories liter our world and become newer and newer incarnations of the same theme: forbidden romance, the hero who must save the lovers from their evil and immoral ways. To me the questions that must be asked are why are women so feared by men? Why and how can a story be so outlived when it seems to be so sexist? These are questions I would like to find out and see if maybe any of the newer incarnations of the story show a lesser version of sexism.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is so popular in Chinese culture today because the story is, like I said, as old as time. It is everlasting much like Cinderella or Romeo and Juliet. The idea of forbidden love or freedom to love whomever regardless of class, status or in this case, species, is very intrinsic in all of our lives. Especially young people whom bring home a boyfriend or girlfriend the parents may not approve of. The monk could symbolize the parents and the children the white snake and her lover. Everyone at some point in their lives has been with someone that their family may not have approved of. This is why I believe that the story is so long lived. Though there are sexist undertones, I believe the story could easily be reversed to have the man as the white snake and the woman as the lover. Either way, the forbidden love is present and the moral monk is there to guide the lover away from the snake. Tales of love and pain are so basic to humans that we forget a little bit about our own pain when watching or reading about others. Which is why we love reading, watching movies, etc. It takes us to a world of pain or love that we may have experienced or only dreamed about. Either way, it is intriguing and this is why it lives on and will always live on.
I agree with your statement about themes that transcend culture and even time. I think that was the most important takeaway from the reading. It speaks to the basic human desire to love and be loved.
DeleteI somewhat disagree in that I think the most modern versions of the story focus on love rather than woman as temptress. Many of the modern versions exclude the monk and have transformed the white snake into a Juliet figure. In the new movie, The Sorcerer and the White Snake, the monk, played by Jet Li, is reintroduced. Yet, the character becomes not so much a villain as an obstacle to true love. His character may represent the old culture and ways of tradition that prevent lovers from uniting (like the situation of the family disapproving in your response). Instead of being an evil villain, she has become a tragic protagonist.
DeleteI think most of these stories are focus on true love and sing praise of woman. Because these four women from terrestrial, the heavens and demon world are will to sacrifice themselves for their love and loved ones.
DeleteOne of the most important things that I found in the “Old Tales for New Times” reading by Idema, was his idea about myth versus history. “With the introduction of the notion of “myth,” came a whole set of late nineteenth century assumptions about the nature of myth, such as the belief that it was the product of a primitive culture. To call stories of the gods from ancient history which so far had been considered part and parcel of history now suddenly “myth” entailed a drastic break with the past and a completely new way of reading those materials, also in a comparative perspective” (P.32-33). In this passage, Idema has pointed out a pivotal point for Chinese literary writings. The connotations behind “myth” and “history” suggest a difference between the perception of Chinese folklore as either important parts of history or morally based stories. This also made me connect back to the reading from last week “The Living Tree” in which we discussed Chinese reality and western theory. Focus turned from spirituality and morality towards intellectualism.
ReplyDeleteI found Dr. Luo’s “The White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China” to be a very vivid overview of all of the different portrayals of the story of White Snake. She clearly demonstrated that the story has been used by not only Mainland China, but also by other nations. “These performances connect Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Mainland China from the end of World War Two to the end of the Cultural Revolution, and involve producers, performers, and patrons throughout Sinophone East Asia” (P.7). In this passage, She has demonstrated that the White Snake story is so important within Asian culture that it helped to ease some tensions between a war-torn continent in a very difficult time. It is interesting to see the power of what seems to be “just a story” for political stability.
I was very unfamiliar with the Lady White Snake story so I have had to read about it this week in order to understand the entirety of our discussions. I have also looked at a few different versions. For the most part, I have come across more versions favoring the lady White Snake as good rather than negative. As we discussed in class, the tale has seen a number of transformations in order to relate to culture of the time. I think that one of the reasons it has survived as a classic for so long is due to its central female character being used to portray the type of female that is believed to be prevalent in society. In the pre-modern versions, lady White Snake serves as a warning of women as a temptation to man. I took a Gender and Women’s studies class where we discussed the idea that woman have been used as scapegoats for the plight of mankind. In the modern versions, she serves as a political message. She appears as a caring and innocent woman focusing on the care of her husband while still maintaining her strength. As such a strong character, I believe that lady White Snake consistently serves as the embodiment of what has been expected of the Chinese woman.
I enjoyed how you ventured out to find different versions of the white snake even though you were unfamiliar with the story. I think that research and your interpretations from the class readings shows how the white snake has evolved and will continue to be prevalent in modern pop. culture.
DeleteIt is so interesting that you found mostly positive interpretations because I found many that were more negative! I was so put off by some of the sexist things being said that it really made me not like the monk in the story or the men and sometimes women who used the story as a way to make women the evil doer in the story. The seductress. It was sad to me that such a story, like Adam and Eve, Eve is always portrayed as the bad person, the initial sinner. Women have battled for generations to become less seductress and more heroine and I think that while some of the older connotations of this story do spell out the white snake as a seductress, some of the newer versions I found (not all, but some) were that of two lovers who were equally to "Blame" for their love rather than just a man being a victim to a woman's charms. But you talking about how now she appears as a strong woman caring for her husband, I much better liked that version! :)
DeleteI also think Dr. Luo’s “The White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China” including very vivid overview of all of the different portrayals of the story of White Snake. After read those materials she collected in her article, I get much more new understanding about the White Snake, especially for more thinking about the Green Snake.
DeleteI like how you highlighted the fact that society's expectations of how a woman should behave is brought up in the White Snake story, even if it was not one of the main focuses.
DeleteIdema uses folktales as a way to delineate how China’s tradition, or culture changes over time. “Tradition implies the translation of culture from one generation to the next.” (Idema, p.27). Folktales are used to show how China’s tradition stays the same, but as time progresses the culture changes. Luo’s piece portrays how the White Snake has various themes that are portrayed in different films, and books. The White Snake has a metamorphosis effect because as time goes on, this folktale is interpreted in different ways.
ReplyDeleteFolktales are a continuation of popular culture today. As always something that was “popular” in the past, usually gains prevalence in the future. Folktales such as the White Snake that have accounts of love, and sexuality will stay prevalent in popular culture. Being that love and sexuality are a constant occurrence in different forms of media today. "The metamorphoses of the White Snake tell a complicated story about gender and class;sexuality, revolution and commercialism; folk, popular and propaganda culture" (Luo, p.2). Popular culture has a metamorphosis effect like the White Snake folktale, since it is has different interpretations and it is constantly changing.
Your quote to define tradition has a strong impact on why the white snake will be prevalent in modern culture. No matter how much the contemporary medium changes, the ideals and morals of the folktale can be traced back to it's roots.
DeleteI agree that the transformation from traditional to modern interpretations does focus primarily on love and sexuality because both western and chinese culture have come to accept this as normal behaviors that are prevalent in life. In pre-modern era portrayals, sexuality was taboo and not acceptable to communicate publicly.
DeleteI agree with what you say about the accounts of love and sexuality will always stay prevalent in popular culture. Most people like to hear of stories about love.
DeleteI would say that as a person who grew up in China, I am very farmiliar with what this story about. it is one of the four Chinese folk tales of all time. there are a lot fo different kinds of novels, or stories about romance or relationships, why did The White Snake become one of four remarkable stories? It is because "The metamorphoses of the White Snake tell a complicated story about gender and class;sexuality, revolution and commercialism; folk, popular and propaganda culture" (Luo, p.2). I couldnt agree more,
ReplyDeleteIn the story, two snakes disguised themselves as two beautiful women and came to our world. And one of them fell in love with a handsome guy. And an old monk kept trying to seperate them. these three main characters represents differnet people from differnet classes in our society. first of all, the two snakes, they are from another world, it is a cultural bury, just like people from differnet countries, they have a lot of things that are not in common. and Xu xian(the guy) represents the normal people in the society. and the monk represents the ruling class with old thoughts of our society. and all these characters have made this story a great story.
It's very interesting that you grew up with this story in China, also that you referred the 3 characters to very important classes in society. I didn't think to look at it with that kind of perspective.
DeleteI agree with the comment before mine that it is a different perspective that I didn't think about. It is very interesting to hear your view on the tale since you are so familiar with it but I really enjoy how you really interpreted the symbolism of the characters in the story.
DeleteI had never heard of this story before so i was very eager to learn more and more about it. The story of the white snake is one that struck me as both tragic and beautiful. I really enjoyed this story and was intrigued by the magical elements, but saddened at the forbidden love between the beautiful woman (the white snake) and the man (her husband). I loved Tian Han's version of the story because he focused more on the romantic aspect of the tale rather than the overpowering factors of lust and passion. I feel like this has become warped and twisted along the years as the story has been told time and time again.
ReplyDeleteIn the Idema On Four Great Tales article I found something that caught my eye: "Romantic love has become such a common notion in the twentieth century that modern interpreters will find love even where it cannot have existed in the premodern versions." THe main focus of this story is love and no matter how many interpretations are made of it they will always try to maintain this theme. I think it's very important that it remains because it helps to preserve the authenticity of the story when it's being retold.
I agree with the romantic theme being maintained throughout history. The idea of forbidden love has always been intriguing to people. You did mention that the story has been warped throughout the years and the story you liked focused mostly on the romantic aspect and less on the lust and passion part, but I think excluding themes like those is harmful to the story because it only presents one side. A work like this can be viewed as complex because there are so many ways to look at it. Not trying to put down anything you just said, I just like the fact that works like this tend to always return to their central themes that continue to appeal to everyone.
DeleteI believe old tales such as White Snake are so popular these days because the modern reinterpretations use timeless themes that resonate with today's society. A forbidden love story in a very rigid, class-based society will always find an audience, no matter which era its told. As stated in the piece Idema on Four Great Tales, the "dominant reinterpretation is that in old society, young people's search for true love was doomed because of the evil patriarchal system."
ReplyDeleteWe come across this theme in modern popular culture all the time. It's the reason why stories such as Romeo and Juliet are enjoyed even to this day, and why White Snake has become considered one of China's "Four Great Tales". Is it because these stories are more expertly crafted than others? Probably not. Instead, I think it's a testament to the fact that they are easily understood and speak to the common man as well as the elite.
I agree with what you said about the story being so popular because we are easily able to relate with them.
DeleteCompletely agree with the fact that forbidden love is a theme that reoccurs throughout time and pertains to people of all classes.
Deletei agree with what you think, it is really popular in China these years, especially they made different version of TV serious about old tales, just like people still love to watch 1992 version a lot
DeleteI agree that these stories have survived and remained popular due to the ease in which people of all classes and backgrounds are able to relate and appreciate them. Above you mentioned Romeo and Juliet, this is a perfect example of how these stories of forbidden love appeal to all classes and people of all backgrounds. It doesn't matter the viewers background, everyone can appreciate such stories.
DeleteThe important message from the readings is that these folk tales remain enduringly popular because writers have been able to adapt aspects of the stories to their time. Yet, why are these stories still so popular? The readings suggest two main reasons. These stories are mirrors of the period that provide the frames needed to reflect and express societal ideals and values. Also, the stories’ antiquity make them familiar and embedded in the culture. With each new interpretation, the stories continue to remain popular and continue to hold an integral part in the expression of societal values. It’s fascinating that some of the stories have come to contradict their first themes and that over time they have all come to resemble one another. Originally the stories seemed to have different themes. As Idema states, “It is difficult to discern a common theme in these four legends in their pre-modern manifestations… In the dominant modern interpretation they all seem to have been reduced to the simple message that in the old society young people’s search for true love was doomed because of the evil patriarchal system.” (Idema p37) The story of the White Snake has drastically contradicted the original version. Initially, with the White Snake character as an evil temptress, the story was a cautionary tale against lust and passion. In modern times, the tale has been used as a story to celebrate true love. As the professor states in her reading, “The metamorphoses of the White Snake tell a complicated story about gender and class; sexuality, revolution and commercialism; folk, popular and propaganda culture; romantic nationalism and transnational cultural and ideological formations in Japan, Hong Kong,Taiwan, Mainland China, and the Chinese Diaspora from the late imperial to contemporary times.” (p2)
ReplyDeleteAs previously stated, folk tales such as the White Snake are still so prevalent today because they reflect societal ideals. The White Snake tale allows for a collective catharsis. Most of us can identify with the struggle for two people to find and hold on to true love and we pity them when they ultimately fail because most of us will experience such emotions ourselves. To appeal to a wider modern male audience, the remake of the movie The Sorcerer and the White Snake starring Jet Li, combines the classic love story with the new popular martial arts genre. The story can also be used to discuss topics that are on the fringe or may be taboo in society. One example of this type is the novella White Snake that views the story from a feminine perspective and explores latent homosexuality. As the professor states, “The female authorship and feminist transgression… signaled a significant change in the social realities and cultural representations surrounding the Chinese new woman in the post-Mao and postmodern Sinophone world.” (p12)
“Cultures are always in change, transforming themselves from generation to generation and from person to person, and impacting other cultures in their orbit.” (p.27 Old Tales for New Times)
ReplyDeleteThe most interesting thing to me is the changes that have come about throughout time to alter the stories. These changes have grown increasingly less traditional and more towards whatever types of social movements are going on at the time of the change. For example, the legend of White Snake evolved overtime in many different ways. During the Qing dynasty, the legend became interpreted as the monk being evil and splitting lovers apart. The most drastic change in the literature comes about in much more recent times. Through the integration of Western ways in China, it has, as “The White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China” mentions, now started to focus on what we know is the “modern woman”. White Snake was even used to popularize modern ideas such as “heterosexual love, women’s rights, and the triumph of humanity”. The theme of sexuality also became prevalent during the 1980s.
A story such as White Snake plays such a huge role in the culture of China because it is a complex work that enables it to be interpreted in many different ways. The story also plays on a lot of themes that are relevant to people both past and present, themes such as love, hatred and lust are reoccurring multiple times throughout history despite what changes may occur in history. Modern movies of White Snake capture the traditional storyline but incorporate modern pop culture. The most recent rendition of the movie starred Jet Li who is a famous actor worldwide. The reason that this is so important, and speaks volumes to the story’s importance, is because having an actor like that in the film merges modern pop culture with traditional Chinese stories on a much larger scale. Since an actor of that magnitude was in the film, it made the film more appealing to the rest of the world. A story such as “White Snake” is a very important piece that links traditional China to modern times.
I agree with what you have to say about how having Jet Li star in the movie to reach out to people. I too think that this will help expand the story of the White Snake to a more modern audience.
DeleteWhat intrigued me the most about these two stories is how the meaning of stories have changed generations after generations. In the reading "Old Tales for New Tales" by Ideman, Idema says "As all genres continuously borrowed from each other, these legends continued to change in a process that in many places is still ongoing" (Idema 36). Idema is saying that all these legends that have been told over hundreds of years change and their meanings change. "The White Snake as the New Woman of Modern China" displays how the meaning of the story has changed over the years. The story was suppose to highlight the "lustful nature of the snake woman and her destructive power, while upholding the monk Fa Hai as a defender of social norms and natural human relations" (Luo 2). The Qing Dynast made a drastic transformation rewriting "White snake as an endearing character and recast Fa Hai as the destructive power separating lovers and families" (Luo 2). All the transformation of White Snake created this "modern woman". She is both “adolescent at play” and “working woman”.
ReplyDeleteThe White Snake has hung around for such a long time and has become a theme in contemporary Chinese popular culture because over the years the interpretation of the story has changed. It goes from the Monk being a defender of social norms and natural human relations to being a destructive power separating lovers and families. The meaning of the story changes depending on how people want to view the relationship between the woman (White Snake) and the man. People want to the story to turn out how they want it to making a difference in how you view the monk, whether you think he is the good person destroying the demon and the sexuality of the woman (which is how the old Chinese viewed it) or destroying the love between the White Snake and the man. The story of love is always a reoccurring theme is stories. The spread of has dramatically increased with well known actors such as Jet Li starring in a movie about the White Snake. This has helped integrate old Chinese with new Modern Chinese. Having a big star like Jet Li starring in a movie about this story will get the attention of modern people to watch it and learn of its story about love.
I agree. Stories change with the people that are interpreting them and, more importantly, retelling them. The same goes for symbols. Indeed, sometimes stories and symbols are ironically re-appropriated to mean the exact opposite of their intention.
DeleteAn example of this is Anonymous, the Anarchist hacktivist group. Why would they wear Guy Fawkes masks? Fawkes intention was to bring down Parliament so he could install a Catholic Theocracy.
Old Tales for New Times narrated China’s four great folk tales, Meng Jiangnu, The Butterfly Lovers, The White Snake Woman and The Buffalo Boy and Weaving Maiden. The author argued that: “It is difficult to discern a common theme in these four legends in their premodern manifestations, but perhaps we can say that they are all stories of failed relations”. (p.37, Idema) As a native Chinese, I am very familiar with these four tales, and I think all of these four tales have same themes: singing the praise of true love and women. Why do I say this? The first Tale, Meng Jiangnu, after her husband died, her howled and caused the collapse of a part of the Great Wall. She preserved chastity after the death of her husband and rejected the emperor, and she even made the emperor apologized to her husband. Finally, she chose to die with her husband’s bone ash. For the Butterfly Lovers, Zhu Yingtai in order to pursuit of true love, rejecting the arranged marriage and die with Liang Shanbo. In the Buffalo Boy and Weaving Maiden tale, Weaving Maiden is a fairy but she fell in love with a terrestrial boy, so their love was not allowed. Because of breaking the laws of God in heaven, she was punished and banished to opposite sides of the Silver River. The last tale the White Snake Woman, a white snake became a woman by Millennium cultivation to meet Xu Xian, but they were separated by the Monk because their love violated morality.
ReplyDeleteFor these four tales, these four women from terrestrial, the heavens and demon world are will to sacrifice themselves for their love and loved ones. China has been following “marriages were decided by the parents” for many thousand years, especially for women. Even today in many rural areas in China, parents arranged marriage interview for marriageable women and men, then parents choose a lucky day for them to get married. Female still belong to a social vulnerable masses in today’s society, especially in emotional vulnerable place. I think this is an important reason why these four tales still prevalent today.
“Tradition implies the translation of culture from one generation to the next; it does not refer to content but to process” (pg 27). The classic story of the White Snake has changed through time as cultures change however, the significance of these changes can be seen through each generation. Idema discusses his views on history versus myths in “Old Tales for New Times” and in my view when such tales and stories are passed through time they have a tendency to be adapted.
ReplyDeleteIn “White Snake as a New Women”, Dr.Luo describes the oldest of the four tales and the ‘metamorphosis’ of the story through time and different places. The story is altered and revised time after time to be able to accommodate and connect to a certain generation. So perhaps it is safe to say that history and myth do connect in ways such as the story represents the current ‘traditions and culture’ at that specific time. It can be seen that the tale evolved from the white snake representing “the lustful nature of the snake and her destructive power” (Luo, 1) to “an endearing character” (Luo, 2). To me the most interesting and obvious transformation of the story is the view on the female character and the way she is portrayed, which I think is an accurate way the women were viewed as ‘culture’ changed. Where Dr. Luo had stated that most versions had the male character as the “defender of social norms and natural human relations” and the Lady White Snake as the antagonist but then evolving into the “new women”. There is a lot of meaning that can be interpreted by each version and advancement as each one is modified to be more modern but still keeping certain traits of the original just changing the perspective.
I agree with your saying that there is a lot of meaning behind each new version of the White Snake. This being said, there is also a lot of hidden meanings that could be easily missed if the viewer/reader has very little or even no accompanying background information on the culture during the period that the version was put out.
Deletesince i was born and grow up in China, we are talking about the old tales when i was in middle school, personally i prefer , it not only because the author have same family name as i have. and it has forbidden for a long time, because the government thinks it was anti-society book, such as Dream of the Red Chamber.
ReplyDeletecompare with other famous books, i think old tales was mainly focus on culture achievement, old tail not was named by a person,but in the process of circulating readers read, after the measure of assessment, carrying a lot of cultural essence, for many people in the osmosis has influenced the wisdom of thinking and communicating way. any way it is still popular in China and it has a huge impact on each generation.
The transformations taking place in the context of new media following the official establishment of the People's Republic of China, and even later, the Cold War, included different ways of telling the story of the White Snake, such as TV programs and operas. As the definition of what is "popular" changes following current political and cultural trends, the tale was rewritten multiple times, incorporating new ideas in order to keep the attention of new audiences and maintain the popularity of the tale.
ReplyDeleteI think that because of these transformations, and the changing nature of this story, as well as others, it is important to keep in mind the implications that they may have had to people in past generations. Why did the different versions of the story appeal to people differently, and would we be interpreting them differently ourselves, had we not known their backgrounds?
Also important to keep in mind while reading, is what information, cultural or otherwise, may have been purposely omitted from the story, to protect the audience, or possibly even the actors/actresses. For example, the notes on the suicides of multiple performers due to "modern woman" struggles (Page 9 of the second article) may have had negative impacts on the younger generation of audiences.
I agree! I think it's important to remember that previous versions had different implications for those of past generations. I think there are many factors that we must consider when reading the many different versions of these stories that are available.
Delete"In many cases it may not have been the story that changed, but rather the interpretation." (pg 40) Many of these classic stories have differed from other versions over time. For me, it's interesting to see how these stories have adapted over time in order for viewers of different generations to be able to appreciate the stories. Many of the situations and traditions that may have been commonplace for society generations ago would not be understood or appreciated within a more modern society. Many of these stories have adapted in order to be appreciated and/or understood by future generations.
ReplyDeleteBesides the adaptations which were made in order to appeal to future generations; the changes also allow a more "romantic" view of the past. Whereas earlier versions of some stories would be more of a "cautionary tale warning against the danger of inappropriate passion" (page 37), many of the modern versions have been adapted with a more positive outlook. "For instance, the modern version ends with the miraculous transformation of the lovers into butterflies". (Page 37) When these stories end positively, they not only appeal to a larger audience, but also provide a positive outlook on a traditional story and the past as well.